Question to all the writers/readers/editor types...

[partly]

When writing we all know that the current standard is to mark thoughts/interior dialogue with italics (although there are those who say you should underline them).

Anyhow: I have a terrible time determining what is thoughts/interior dialogue and what is just deep third person POV narration. What are your opinions on it? Is there really a hard set rule on what is or is not a "thought"?

EXAMPLE 1:

Walter finally stepped out of the room and Jack closed the door with a disgusted grimace. This was insane. When did it become so hard to intimidate subordinates? No, that wasn't right. They were intimidated but they stood their ground. And so they should when dealing with totally insane orders from a superior officer.

Is everything after 'grimace' considered thoughts? Should it be:

Walter finally stepped out of the room and Jack closed the door with a disgusted grimace. This was insane. When did it become so hard to intimidate subordinates? No, that wasn't right. They were intimidated but they stood their ground. And so they should when dealing with totally insane orders from a superior officer.

That's a lot of italics. Could I go with just parts of it being thoughts.

Walter finally stepped out of the room and Jack closed the door with a disgusted grimace. This was insane. When did it become so hard to intimidate subordinates? No, that wasn't right. They were intimidated but they stood their ground. And so they should when dealing with totally insane orders from a superior officer.

Should I just rewrite the damn thing so I don't have to worry about it? I could change the last two sentences to something else that will, hopefully, not have this problem.

EXAMPLE 2:

Free of surveillance, Jack turned to the dialing computer and punched an address into the computer. His hand hovered over the palm reader for a minute, and then he placed it on the screen. There was no going back now, no time for second thoughts, no other choice. Not that there ever had been, he thought. There never really had been a choice, at all.

Would this work:

Free of surveillance, Jack turned to the dialing computer and punched an address into the computer. His hand hovered over the palm reader for a minute, and then he placed it on the screen. There was no going back now, no time for second thoughts, no other choice. Not that there ever had been. There never really had been a choice, at all.

Or does it need to be:

Free of surveillance, Jack turned to the dialing computer and punched an address into the computer. His hand hovered over the palm reader for a minute, and then he placed it on the screen. There was no going back now, no time for second thoughts, no other choice. Not that there ever had been. There never really had been a choice, at all.



I tend to write fairly deep into the POV characters thoughts. I never can tell what is thought and what is just POV character narration.

And that is driving me nuts.

I'm also beginning to hate italics.

Comments

[wiliqueen.livejournal.com]

I do a lot of the same thing, and I use them or not by pretty much the same rules as quote marks for spoken dialogue. F'rinstance, you would say in the narrative:

He said that he was going to the party.

But you would use quotes if it were:

He said, "I'm going to the party."

I do the same with thoughts:

Jack really didn't like this. It sucked. It sucked a lot.

As opposed to:

Jack really didn't like this. This sucks. It sucks a lot.

I don't know that I ever learned these as rules per se, but I think I absorbed them from reading novels, etc. And when I run into something that deviates from the above -- which isn't often -- it looks wrong. I couldn't name you a rule, but that's definitely the style standard.

[wiliqueen.livejournal.com]

:: actually reads your example ::

Which means, BTW, that you don't need them in this passage, because it's all third person/past tense, fitting in with the narrative. It's understood to be Jack's pov, which implies that anything in the narrative is his perception. You don't have to set it off because it's not objectively factual or anything.

[wiliqueen.livejournal.com]

:: actually READS instead of skimming ::

Um... this applies to both examples. *g*

[alliesings.livejournal.com]

Okay, for example 1, I think you could use a variation of this:

Walter finally stepped out of the room and Jack closed the door with a disgusted grimace. This was insane. When did it become so hard to intimidate subordinates? No, that wasn't right. They were intimidated but they stood their ground. And so they should when dealing with totally insane orders from a superior officer.

IMO, the difference between that and italicizing the whole thing is whether or not you think Jack would actually use the phrase "No, that wasn't right" in his thoughts.

my ideas:

Walter finally stepped out of the room and Jack closed the door with a disgusted grimace. This is insane. When did it become so hard to intimidate subordinates? No, they were intimidated but they stood their ground. And so they should when dealing with totally insane orders from a superior officer.

or

Walter finally stepped out of the room and Jack closed the door with a disgusted grimace and a feeling that the whole thing was insane. When had it become so hard to intimidate subordinates? He could tell that they had been intimidated but had stood their ground. And so they should when dealing with totally insane orders from a superior officer.

Incidentally, don't most orders come from a superior officer? So that may be redundant.

Notice I change the tense of the sentence to present if it is his direct thoughts. Of course, neither example is perfect, but I wanted to give you a couple other ideas.

For Example 2 I like this personally:

Free of surveillance, Jack turned to the dialing computer and punched an address into the computer. His hand hovered over the palm reader for a minute, and then he placed it on the screen. There was no going back now, no time for second thoughts, no other choice. Not that there ever had been. There never really had been a choice, at all.

If you decide to italicize more of it, then I'd change the tense to reflect that.:

There's no going back now,

[alliesings.livejournal.com]

Now that I've been my opinionated self, then read what you have to say, would you say she doesn't need any italics, even if she uses:

Not that there ever had been, he thought. There never really had been a choice, at all.

If she is emphasizing that those words in particular are his exact thoughts?

[wiliqueen.livejournal.com]

No, because they're not. The tense puts them in the narrative.

If they were his exact thoughts, they'd be Not that there ever were. There's really been a choice at all. Unless he has some weird cognitive thing where he thinks in past perfect. *g*

It's still the same thing as 'He said he was going to the party.' What he actually said wasn't "He was going to the party," it was something that conveyed that information.

[wiliqueen.livejournal.com]

IMO, the difference between that and italicizing the whole thing is whether or not you think Jack would actually use the phrase "No, that wasn't right" in his thoughts.

But he wouldn't. The phrase in his thoughts would be "No, that's not right."

If you're doing a third person single pov, the pov character's voice/style can leak into the narrative without it being a direct quote. It's a very common device, and virtually never italicized in standard published fiction.

[alliesings.livejournal.com]

If you're doing a third person single pov, the pov character's voice/style can leak into the narrative without it being a direct quote. It's a very common device, and virtually never italicized in standard published fiction.

Which is how I tend to write, mostly because of a very tense English professor I once had.

So, for the record, yeah. I think she can go with no italics at all if she keeps it in past tense.

[finabair.livejournal.com]

Your question made me dizzy, and then the discussion of the answers made me even dizzier. Whee!!!

[wiliqueen.livejournal.com]

Which is how I tend to write, mostly because of a very tense English professor I once had.

*nods* It's a good idea in general, I think. Pretty much any time you hear people in fandom commenting/being aware of it, they're saying that third person/past tense should be the norm, and they're annoyed by writers veering from it without a good reason.

But not nearly as annoyed as I've seen some people get over sloppy pov!

I was tearing at my hair when I realized "Still Waters" was just not going to flow in any way other than first/present. Every rule has an exception, and from comments I've gotten, I think that piece turned out to be one where the exception applied. But part of me still expects somebody to smack me down for it. :-D

So, for the record, yeah. I think she can go with no italics at all if she keeps it in past tense.

And what occurred to me while I was at lunch -- in the example you were using, "he thought" doesn't really need to be there. It's understood that the thoughts about there being no choice are his thoughts. And I think taking it out might help clear up some of Partly's own confusion.

[partly.livejournal.com]

And I think taking it out might help clear up some of Partly's own confusion.

Absolutely!

In the past I italicized very little because I always believed that thoughts that were actual thoughts had to be in present tense. But then I did this little writing class thing and everyone there insisted that I was doing it wrong.

*Bah*

I do have points where the characters are having actual thoughts, but that's rare.

Thank you all so much!

[partly.livejournal.com]

Well, if you wouldn't be so dizzy to start with....

Actually, we've started talking about tenses. Which I have problems with and you are good at, so I should be the one with problems and you should be fine.

Odd, that.

[wiliqueen.livejournal.com]

But then I did this little writing class thing and everyone there insisted that I was doing it wrong.

Huh. The only thing I can think is that they were on drugs.

Glad we could help!

[wiliqueen.livejournal.com]

Well, if you wouldn't be so dizzy to start with....

I wasn't going to say anything.

[partly.livejournal.com]

Incidentally, don't most orders come from a superior officer? So that may be redundant.

It most definitely is redundant. I will cut that.

And thanks for the great discussion (even though I said very little here). Most of what has been said here jives with what I had always thought. Then I got advice that confused me. I'm less confused now, thanks to this discussion.

[kitap.livejournal.com]

In the first example #3 makes me realize that I am not sure what his *exact thoughts* are in #1 & #2.

In the second I prefer #1.

Maybe what is putting me off is that I don't see any *I* in the thoughts. No self-awareness that he is thinking this, if you know what I mean. Or am I too confusing?

Of course, I am a fine one to talk with my love of Third-person limited:
cinematic view. ;)

ray

[partly.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

You're right. The I isn't present in any of the examples, really. I rarely used italics and just recently have become confused by (what appears to be) bad advice.

I just needed to see some other people's thoughts on the topic. I'll be better now.

Of course, I am a fine one to talk with my love of Third-person limited:
cinematic view. ;)

As this if fanfic, third-person limited: cinematic view would probably be best. Only I can't write that way.

Not sure I can write any other way either, but we'll see.